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04 October 2006 @ 02:04 pm
religion questions  
Two completely unrelated religion questions about two pretty much unrelated religions.

A friend is interested in paganism. Any resources I should point her at? She's been to a meeting somewere. Argh! I forget! I think it's the second Thursday of each month, possibly on Parnell St. Any of you been to that or know anything about it?


Something on my friendslist has made me realise I don't understand what the story is with original sin and if there's a relationship with baptism. And I don't know what the consequences of mortal sins vs venial sins are.
I'm pretty sure original sin is sin that we're born with because of Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of knowledge. Where I get confused is with the removal of it. Is it removed because of Jesus' sacrifice? He died for all our sins. If so, is it for everyone in the world, or just Christians? Does baptism have anything to do with original sin? I presume it does if the answer to the previous question is "just Christians".
I don't remember learning about mortal sins & venial sins, just picking stuff up from other people. I think a mortal sin is one that's enough to send you to hell. Can you avoid that by repenting? Do venial sins affect your chances of heaven or hell? Do you have to repent of them? Is there a critical mass that sends you to hell? Or is it that the amount of sinning and repentance affect the time you spend in purgatory?
I'm asking from a Catholic viewpoint but I'm interested in any other Christian viewpoint, or any other religion that the questions are relevant to.

I'm just curious, not worried about my soul. FWIW, I was brought up Catholic, but I'm an atheist. I still hope I don't go to hell for using the Flying Spaghetti Monster icon on this post :-)


Ok, maybe that wasn't two questions...

Currently Reading: Snow Falling on Cedars Snow Falling on Cedars
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I cared not for consequences but wrote: angelfoolelorie on October 4th, 2006 01:16 pm (UTC)
WitchVox is always good. http://www.witchvox.com

What books has she read already? I favor "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk and "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler because by this time they are classic.
a very caring potato: yordamollydot on October 4th, 2006 01:38 pm (UTC)
I don't know. She read something that showed there isn't "one true way", but she couldn't remember the author.

I read Pop! Goes The Witchby Fiona Horne, which I thought was good, as it covered lots of topics and paths, and I had a book of spells, but I've passed them both on already.

I have First Steps to Solitary Witchcraft, which I can pass on to her when I've looked at it. But that could be some time away.


You're in the Feri tradition, aren't you? I googled it after you mentioned it in a recent post. It looks interesting. I hadn't known about it before. Is The Spiral Dance Feri based?
I cared not for consequences but wrote: angelfoolelorie on October 4th, 2006 01:56 pm (UTC)
Starhawk was initiated into the Feri Tradition, and there is some Feri material in TSD, though she went for writing a more "general" witchcraft book (from her perspective). She, some other Feri initiates (M. Macha Nightmare, for one) and some other folks went on to found Reclaiming, which is more or less a Feri offshoot....they use a lot of the same material, plus some of their own, and there's a lot of overlap. However Reclaiming has its own flavor to it.

A book that is more about Feri per se is Evolutionary Witchcraft by T. Thorn Coyle.
being_herebeing_here on October 4th, 2006 02:42 pm (UTC)
I'd second those two.
a very caring potatomollydot on October 5th, 2006 09:34 am (UTC)
Are you pagan? I didn't know that.

Though maybe you're not. I've read a number of books, but I'm not. Just curious.
being_herebeing_here on October 5th, 2006 09:52 am (UTC)
I wouldn't call myself pagan. I use some pagan techniques and am a member of an group that does open rituals but I don't do a huge amount. I practice Buddhism every day and I don't really consider myself a Buddhist.

I'm just a me. Trying my best to understand who I am, what I am and how I fit into the greater scheme of things.
a very caring potato: iProcrastinatemollydot on October 5th, 2006 10:27 am (UTC)
That's cool. If I follow you, would I be a Meist? :-)

I've started mindfulness classes. They're run by Buddhists. Yet here I am, working, replying to comments and drinking tea. So much for doing one thing at a time...

being_herebeing_here on October 5th, 2006 10:33 am (UTC)
Hehehehehe - or a youist ;-)

Not necessarily doing one thing at once - just knowing what you're doing as you're doing it ;-)
(Deleted comment)
a very caring potatomollydot on October 5th, 2006 09:38 am (UTC)
Another one! Maybe I'll do a poll to see the religious makeup of my flist...

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
Do you know if that's the Catholic Church, or can you be any sort of Christian? According to Catholic teaching, I mean.

Thanks for those. I wasn't really expecting to get answers to both sets of questions from one person :-)
wyvernfriendwyvernfriend on October 4th, 2006 08:14 pm (UTC)
Witchvox.org and ecauldron.net are good resources. The people at Ecauldron's forum are pretty sane and tend to take exception to the "all christians are evil" stance some forums propagate.

The Libraries have some books on paganism. I can get a list if she wants and my opinions on them.
a very caring potatomollydot on October 5th, 2006 09:54 am (UTC)
Thanks for those.

Yeah, I was thinking of the library when elorie mentioned The Spiral Dance, as I believe it & Starhawk are known in the mainstream. I think my mum's read it.
hippo__dignityhippo__dignity on October 5th, 2006 03:44 am (UTC)
I'm a recovering southern baptist and since it was my post that inspired these questions, I thought that I'd tell you what the baptists think, since baptism is such a big part of their religion.

First, what Adam and Eve did gave humans the knowledge of good and evil. Before then, we could not be held accountable for sin, because we were not aware of right and wrong. Therefore, all humans were sinless. Original sin is the ability to tell right from wrong. It's the same concept as pleading insanity for a crime... you are innocent because you are unable to tell that what you did was wrong... Just knowing what's right and what's wrong takes away your innocence.

They do not baptise children. You are baptised after you become a Christian. Chindren are not Christians, but all children go to heaven if they die until they reach the age of accountability, which is 13. After 13, they have to "make a profession of faith" or "get saved" in order to be forgiven for their sins. This is a one time thing. Unlike Catholics, they do not confess to a priest, but directly to God. Most baptists don't consider Catholics to be Christians because of this. They believe that in order to be a Christian, you have to have a personal relationship with God, and that priests interfere with that. Once you make a profession of faith, which you can do either publicly or privately and is a prayer that basically says that you are a sinner and that you are asking for forgiveness and thanking Jesus for dying for your sins. If you ask for the forgiveness from God, Baptists believe that he automatically gives it to you. Then you're forgiven for all your sins and you get to go to heaven when you die. Directly. No purgatory or anything. A lot of people criticize the religion because after you're saved, you can pretty much do anything and you're automatically forgiven for it, but Baptists believe that if you were sincere when you asked for forgiveness, then you will do your best to not sin anymore and if you weren't sincere, then you aren't saved anyway. Then comes the baptism. Baptism is a symbolic ritual. You are supposed to be baptised if you are able, like the Muslic pilgrimage to Mecca. You are only required to do it if you can do it without too much trouble. Like if you get saved on your death bed and it's not practical for you to be baptised, it doesn't matter. But it's symbolic of dying and being reborn. You are buried in the water, then resurected, washed clean of all your sins. They do full submersion baptism, not just a sprinkle.

There's lots more, of course, because religions are all very complicated, but those are the basics.

a very caring potatomollydot on October 5th, 2006 10:13 am (UTC)
Thanks for that. Everything I know about Baptists I know from you! (BTW, what's the religion called? Southern Baptism?)

you will do your best to not sin anymore
That seems important to me. I don't think anyone can avoid sinning, but we can keep trying.

Is there any time element to it? Eg you could be sincere when you asked for forgiveness and then turn to evil (those pesky moments of perfect happiness :-) ) - would you still be saved? Oh, hang on... *goes back to your post* He would know at the time you asked for forgiveness whether you would be sincere for all time - is that it?
verenkaverenka on October 5th, 2006 12:28 pm (UTC)
hey, did you see? the pope abolished "Limbus infantium" for unbaptised children. Now the catholic babies go directly to heaven, too. My friend concertina commented on it here: http://concertina8.livejournal.com/15622.html
but I have to find an english source for this yet.
verenkaverenka on October 5th, 2006 12:31 pm (UTC)
a very caring potatomollydot on October 5th, 2006 12:34 pm (UTC)
Eh? I thought it was already gone. I thought they'd got rid of Limbo during the previous Pope's time. Maybe they just started talking about it then.
(Anonymous) on October 10th, 2006 01:58 pm (UTC)
pagan books and birth sin.
Hi Gang,

It was me who innitially asked a friend about the old religion.
Thanks for the info.

I have a few books (by Viviane Crowley and Ly De Angeles) and I have been to An Fainne meeting once (Interesting and nice folks btw.). I plan to go there this Thursday.

Re: birth sin. I think I do not have it. The ones who do not consider themselves christian do not have this sin, as only christians can have it. :)
Why to be born in the natural way is a Sin? It just does not make any sense.

From the christian point of view: you have to be baptized in order to get rid of that dirty sin. If not... well... It depends. If you die, then you will go to the limbo (right, they plan to abandon it for babies)... if you do not have any other sins. If you have any other sins...then you got a problem, as Hell may be the only option available (God is merciful you see).
...
Hey, gurlcooties ;). It appears that our paths have crossed again. :o)
Just another coinci-dance :)

thanks,
me :-)